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High level MMA striking- Penn vs. Edgar 2

Frontpaged by DW.

Hello HKL denizens, this'll be my first post on here, so bear with me; I decided that since this is a kickboxing- oriented blog, but my area of knowledge is more in the realm of MMA, i'd discuss something which I don't think received nearly enough play after UFC 112- and that's the thrilling, neck and neck tactical (primarily) striking battle between BJ Penn & Frank Edgar.  Unfortunately, between the controversial decision in their fight, and Anderson Silva's antics, the actual brilliance of this fight went largely unnoticed.  I sincerely hope that the discussion in this thread be focused more on this than the topic of who should've won (a dialogue which has been thoroughly explored & analyzed).

Especially with the upcoming rematch between these two, I thought it prudent to analyze their 1'st fight.  The stylistic discrepancies were obvious from the outstart- Penn, with his stalking, crisp hand- focused game, with his laser beam jab & explosive power shots; Frankie, with his tireless circling, varied striking attack, and relentless pace.  Both men had specific games in mind that they sought to implement, and both men experienced mixed results; BJ would chase after Frank in frustration from time to time, and that's when Frankie would be able to use feints and score on Penn.  Conversely, whenever Edgar would get too cute or too predictable with his head movement or attacks, Penn would counter mercilessly, repeatedly busting his chaps with deft jabs and check hooks.  BJ would hold the center of the Octagon with his feet firmly planted by the time of an exchange, using his great timing & control of distance to counter Edgar, and Frank would respond by circling to either side, employing fakes, and working an in- and- out kind of attack.  Well, at least until the 4'th round. 

Bj-penn-vs-frankie-edgar_medium

Star-divide

Through the 3'rd round, it's the general consensus that although Frank was doing much better than expected, Penn was landing the more significant strikes.  Interestingly, Fightmetric & Compustrike have significant discrepancies in their scoring- FM has Penn outlanding Edgar 72-63 (71-61 power strikes), whereas CS has Edgar outlanding BJ 90-81 (BJ still has the edge in power strikes in their estimation, 74-72).  However, it becomes more interesting round- by- round.  Both sources agree that Penn landed more significant strikes in rounds 1-3, although round 3 was (nearly) even in total strikes, and perhaps the judges valued Frank's takedown attempts.  Rounds 4 & 5 aren't in dispute, with Edgar winning both rounds quite clearly against a visibly worn Penn; nothing to merit a 10-8 round, but Frank won those last 2 rounds just as clear as BJ won the first 2.

Now- the real meat of this story: how will the rematch go down?  Heading into the 2'nd, it's clear that both men have things they can improve on- Frank needs to land more damaging strikes, and if he does get takedowns again, he needs to do something with them.  BJ needs to make it much more obvious that he's landing the better shots (if he is), and would do well if he could take Edgar to the mat.  Now, BJ looked a little doughier than he has in his other recent fights, and that can be possibly attributed to A) Not training with Marv Marinovich in prep for the fight, B) The knee brace he was wearing during the fight could signify that he had some injuries heading into the match, and C) Perhaps a classic BJ Penn lack of motivation, which (if that was the case) might be rectified by what seems to be a very motivated, and perturbed, BJ (a frightening prospect, indeed).

 Personally, i'm leaning a bit towards BJ, because he just didn't look as dynamic & focused as he was in his fights with Sanchez, Florian, Sherk, etc, and because Frankie basically had the fight of his life on that night.  Perhaps he will execute it even more effectively, and definitively beat 'The Prodigy'- but who knows?  Cheers to what could be another highly technical and brilliant striking match between the worlds 2 very best Lightweight fighters!

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Nice post

most of the discussion around this fight was annoying and it is nice to see an actual breakdown of it. Tough one to call, so I don’t think anyone can really complain about the decision. I hope to see more chances taken by Baby J in the second.

"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again."

by Deuce02 on Aug 17, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree

The fight was so close, the only judge you can really chastise was Doug Crosby, because of the 50-45 Edgar score.

For me, I think BJ needs to be more focused- there were times when he wouldn’t let himself get confused by Frank’s movement, and would use his excellent feel for timing & distance to just go in and blast him. As the fight dragged on & BJ got more tired, he lost that; partly due to fatigue, & I think a good deal can be attributed to the attack Edgar made on BJ’s legs & torso

Xtreme Couture (Vegas) & The Hit Pit (Spokane WA) REPRESENT

"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 17, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

the 50-45 was egregious

I hope BJ comes in with a better gameplan. Focus has always been BJ’s issue- but, he loves a challenge, which he has in the form of getting his belt back.

"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again."

by Deuce02 on Aug 17, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I had Penn winning 49-46. Even re-watching the fight yesterday for the 5th or so time, it just makes me angry to see BJ visibily land more numerous and damaging blows round by round. I think the fact that Edgar was moving faster with his body and tagging BJ with the more apparent yet numerically inferior shots.

Expect BJ to take the initiate in the next fight. I expect he’ll win by Submission in 3.

"That muscle contraction, that core strength that kind of happens, that pulls together when you’re maybe smoking weed or whatever, you know, you’re coughing or whatever ... I’m not a doctor or a fucking scientist, but I’ve smoked plenty of weed. And, you know, I think in my opinion it’s pretty damn good for you." MMAPlayground Profile

by Ahhhoki on Aug 17, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions  

To continue my thought:

“I think the fact that … … inferior shots” exposed the ineptitude of the judges as far as noticing quick jabs and the like.

"That muscle contraction, that core strength that kind of happens, that pulls together when you’re maybe smoking weed or whatever, you know, you’re coughing or whatever ... I’m not a doctor or a fucking scientist, but I’ve smoked plenty of weed. And, you know, I think in my opinion it’s pretty damn good for you." MMAPlayground Profile

by Ahhhoki on Aug 17, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well,

I think at least part of it could be their vantage point. Think about it- they have to look at an upward angle, through a fence, sometimes with the Referee getting in the way; Judges don’t enjoy the kind of crystal clarity of viewpoint that fans watching the paperview do. The way BJ uses head movement, very often he’ll roll with punches, bring his head back to negate/ lessen the impact of a punch- but what the judges see is Frank throwing a quick shot, and Penn’s head retracting. I, for one, could see how they might have an inflated sense of how well Edgar did.

Also, Penn had the cut/ mouse under his eye, and i’d imagine that for the judges, visible damage like thare are quite influential.

Xtreme Couture (Vegas) & The Hit Pit (Spokane WA) REPRESENT

"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 17, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he’s four times more motivated for the rematch. Which I guess isn’t saying much, because he appeared very uninspired when they first fought. Very uncharacteristic for BJ’s recent performances. But I’m excited. People can say what they want about his personality, but a motivated BJ Penn is a must-see fight every time.

by Relax. on Aug 17, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

i like what you have to say

it is all right bj did not look very motivated by the fight and now he has to win the belt back think we will see a more motivated bj and edgar just not on his level got a lot of hart and carido out the roof but skills and tech at this level will win 8 out of 10 times www.mmaff.com for more MMA News

by Rob Cares on Aug 17, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Good post, thanks for writing about this fight, which is being sadly overshadowed by the Couture/Toney freakshow.

by Amor on Aug 17, 2010 2:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Very true

It’s a shame, too. Such a superb fight deserves more play (although Randy/ Toney is as compelling as they come)

Xtreme Couture (Vegas) & The Hit Pit (Spokane WA) REPRESENT

"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 17, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Toney is good at selling his crap (“Mohhgor, li’s out, blormmgnol, pay’s ele’tric bill, glombohrgo …”). The mma blogs oversell the boxing vs mma angle and get their hits, the casual fans are attracted by the freak show but in the end that’s a good card.

Neither BJ nor Edgar have the capacity to promote a fight Chael style. We should thank Toney, he’s giving them more promo than they could have dreamed of.

Oh, and very good article, thanks.

Well, anybody who knows me knows I'm no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true. Or what did or didn't happen.

by MarcoDos on Aug 18, 2010 5:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

I like how Toney had to have subtitles during the hype video because he’s so unintelligible. He literally talks as incoherently as he tweets.

You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/

"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 18, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s hilarious. That being said I can’t understand how medical clearance works. He’s showing obvious signs of brain damage, should he be fighting really ?

Well, anybody who knows me knows I'm no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true. Or what did or didn't happen.

by MarcoDos on Aug 19, 2010 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good write-up of an interesting fight.

Personally, I don’t like BJ here for the same reason I didn’t like him in the GSP rematch. I think Penn relies too much on ability and not enough on planning, and that’s a combo that works heavily against you in a rematch. Edgar is a student of the game – he will have learned from the first fight and come in stronger. BJ will come in maybe better in shape, but not all that much different. History tells the tale: of the 4 previous rematches Penn has fought, he’s only managed to win one, and that was against a decidedly washed up Jens Pulver.

I think Edgar takes this and looks surprisingly strong doing so.

HeadKickLegend.com

by Fraser Coffeen on Aug 17, 2010 6:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Interesting

It is true that BJ doesn’t have the best track record in rematches, but to be fair, I thought he edged Caol out in their 2’nd fight, and BJ was beating Hughes in their rematch until he broke his ribs in a scramble.

I will say though- Edgar is much more versatile than BJ. BJ implements a plodding, headhunting game, and if/ when he can score takedowns, he is absolutely vicious from on top; whereas Frankie has developed a very evolved, tactical striking game involving lots of footwork, head movement, variety of shots- including head/ body shots with his hands, as well as leg/ body kicks. I’d personally like to see Penn try his luck in the clinch, he’s shown some good dirty boxing & knees in the past, and if he could somehow manage to get on top of Frankie, he could gain a serious upper hand.

You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/

"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 17, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

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