In UFC-WEC Merger, Zuffa Makes One of Boxing's Classic Mistakes
by Brian Mayes on Oct 30, 2010 12:00 AM EDT
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This past Thursday, Dana White announced that the UFC and the WEC would be merging, hence adding two new weight classes to the UFC. Like most hardcore MMA fans, I was positively thrilled to hear the news. In the 5 or so years I've been following the sport, the most exciting fights I've seen on a consistent card by card basis have been in the WEC. Watching elite level bantamweights and featherweights fight is a sight to see and something any fan, from the most casual to the most hardcore, can enjoy immensely. Having these fights in the UFC just make it all that much better.
But there was one bit of news that Dana White announced during Thursday's conference call that made me do a double take. He announced that WEC featherweight champion Jose Aldo is now automatically the UFC featherweight champion. He also announced that the winner of the WEC bantamweight title fight in December between champion Dominick Cruz and challenger Scott Jorgenson would be recognized as the UFC bantamweight champion.
Now, on its face this doesn't seem like a big deal - Jose Aldo is undeniably the best featherweight in the world, and whoever wins the fight between Dominick Cruz and Scott Jorgenson will be the best bantamweight in the world. But here's the problem - we are going to have two UFC champions crowned that have never, ever fought in the UFC before.
Here's a scenario for you. Jose Aldo makes his UFC debut on January 1st, presumably against Josh Grispi. Aldo will already be recognized as the UFC featherweight champion, and the fight is considered a title defense for him. Grispi goes out and locks on a guillotine and taps out Aldo. What then? Aldo will forever be known as a UFC champion, even though he never actually won the title.
Boxing has had this same exact scenario happen. The great Ken Norton outpointed Jimmy Young in November of 1977, in an eliminator match to face WBC heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali. As it turns out, Ali lost the title to heavy underdog Leon Spinks before Norton could get his anticipated 4th fight with Ali. Spinks was contractually obligated to fight Norton, as he was the #1 contender due to his win over Young. Instead of fighting Norton, Spinks instead went with the big money matchup, a rematch with Ali. The WBC stripped Spinks of the title for refusing to fight Norton, and in March of 1978 awarded Norton the title, claiming the win over Young was a "retroactive title bout". Three months later, Norton defended his title against Larry Holmes, and lost a close (and somewhat controversial) decision. Now Holmes was WBC champion, even though he didn't beat someone who had actually won that belt in the ring. Norton will forever have an asterisk next to his title of former heavyweight champion, and as such that cloud hangs over Holmes somewhat as well.
Now, Dana White always says that he tries to learn from the mistakes of boxing, yet he is repeating a mistake that is a large gripe with boxing fans. There is an incredibly easy solution to this problem - have the WEC champions fight the number one contenders in their division for the vacant UFC title in their promotional debuts. Instead of Aldo defending his UFC championship against Grispi on January 1st, have both men fighting as challengers for the vacant title. Not only does it force the fighters to actually win the promotional belts in the cage, it will make it much clearer for the casual fan who doesn't follow the WEC. Instead of them wondering who this UFC champion is that they've never seen fight in the promotion before, they can go, "Oh man, I saw this Brazilian kid win the UFC belt! It was awesome!"
If Dana doesn't want MMA to be like boxing, this is something that he should sort out.
Note that Lights Out Radio had a great discussion on this very topic on their Friday show. You can check it out here. The discussion starts at the 33 minute mark.
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I don’t really see the problem, Aldo has earned his title to have him vacate his WEC title which is world reconized as the number 1 championship for that division would be silly and useless. By him being rightfully recongized as the UFC FW champion is tells everyone that he’s the best in that division and no matter what happens afterwards as of January 1 he’s the man.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
If Aldo is such a bad man (and I certainly agree that he is), then he should have ZERO problems winning the vacant UFC featherweight belt. If he really is that good, there’s no need to crown him champ before he’s ever fought in the promotion. Let him go in there and blow Grispi or whoever out of the water, and win the belt in proper fashion.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Your premise is based on a false notion and that’s the fact that Aldo has to prove anything. He is the best FW in the world, he is also already under zuffa contract the UFC has never had a FW division so that belt would be meaningless by itselt. Crowning Aldo the official FW champ gives that belt a status that it would lack if it was just made vacant because a small ammount of people have a problem with it.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Oct 31, 2010 5:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Every time they added a new weight class, fighters fought for the vacant title. The title is vacant since no one has officially fought for it yet. I agree, Aldo is far and away the best featherweight in the world. Still, he didn’t win the UFC title, he won the WEC title. It’s not the same thing. It’s much more proper to have him win the UFC title in an actual fight, instead of just putting the belt on him.
Here’s a different scenario for you, reposted from a comment I made below.
Let’s say Faber beats Mizugaki next month, and Dominick Cruz defends the belt against Scott Jorgenson in December. They go to the UFC, and Cruz is already UFC bantamweight champion, even though he’s never fought in the promotion before. Faber beats Cruz in the rematch and takes the belt. These are very, very real possibilities. So now Dominick Cruz has been UFC champion, without ever fighting in the promotion before and going 0-1 in his first outing.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Because there is no reason to make a vacant title when you already have champions under contract for those divisions, this really is a ridiculous argument. Aldo and Cruz are the world recognized #1 fighters in their divisions, they are already under zuffa contract making vacant belts in these 2 cases makes no sense so the UFC is cutting through the bs and recognizing these 2 guys as who they are.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Nov 5, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
They are making the WEC belts recognized as UFC belts. That’s weak from a promotional and fan perspective. Why not just have them fight for the vacant belt? Why do we have to go, “Oh, they’re a UFC champion now.” Is it asking too much for these guys to actually WIN a promotional belt instead of just being handed one?
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
They’re the Zuffa belts. There is no sanctioning body akin to the WBC, so it more or less is under the same banner. The letters changed, but they’re the same titles. Maybe it is weak from a storyline perspective, as crowning a “new” champion always garners extra hoopla, but the fights aren’t any different. Ali is still fighting Norton, in this case.
Look at it this way: the real reason that Norton being handed the title was so dubious is because everyone knew he should have been fighting Spinks or Ali for the belt. That’s not the issue with Aldo-Grispi or Cruz-Jorgensen.
This is more akin to the renaming of the belts, like how Pat Miletich was a UFC Lightweight champ without ever competing at 155lbs (he fought at 170lbs), or how Frank Shamrock was the first UFC Middleweight Champion but never fought at 185 (the current limit) while with the promotion.
In those instances, the champions are retroactively recognized as being in the current weight limits. What they’ll likely do here is extend the title history to the current Zuffa incarnation of the WEC as well, similar to how (I think) the WBA traces back its championships the NBA titles starting in the 1920s.
This was brought up on the show today
And although I don’t think it’s a BIG deal, Matt and Forrest are both in agreeance with you. Yeah, it’s weird that these fighters are just getting a pass, and even though I think that the tagline of “Watch two elite fighters square of for the FIRST EVER UFC (insert your weight)WEIGHT TITLE!” would sell a couple shows, I don’t think they’re hurting the buyrate, and I don’t think that the overall legacy of these fighters will be diminished. I mean, in the here and now we know who Aldo is, and we know what he’s all about, so whether he trades in his belt for a shiny new one (provided they just don’t get one of Randy’s throw-aways from the supply closet) or if he officially fights for one, I don’t think it lessens anyone’s perception of him as a fighter. Does it create a wacky lineage for the title? Absolutely, but this isn’t really a flub the likes of which I will give much thought to in the future, if any at all. I mean come on, they don’t care enough about non-UFC titles as it is, with Hendo’s two title “unification” fights featuring all of ZERO Pride belts being carried down to the ring, so why start doing it right today.
On an unrelated note, get your bad self back over to 4real!
You know what's really fun? Not being a raving lunatic. Give it a try some time, you might just like it!
Live previews and reviews of all major fights! LightsOutRadio.com
by -Neil- on Oct 30, 2010 2:36 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think it hurts the buyrates at all. I just think it muddies the water, makes the history of the belt a bit complex, and leaves an opening for some funky stuff to possibly happen.
Let’s say Faber beats Mizugaki next month, and Dominick Cruz defends the belt against Scott Jorgenson in December. They go to the UFC, and Cruz is already UFC bantamweight champion, even though he’s never fought in the promotion before. Faber beats Cruz in the rematch and takes the belt. These are very, very real possibilities. So now Dominick Cruz has been UFC champion, without ever fighting in the promotion before and going 0-1 in his first outing. This is the kind of stuff that confuses the HELL out of casual fans, which is where the money is. Not that I’m saying we should pander to casual fans, but it’s more confusing than it needs to be. Doing a fight for the vacant belt just makes sense.
And I still check the 4real every day or every other day. I didn’t know you guys had a show Friday, otherwise I would have set up shop in the comments section to keep ya’ll in line. ;~) Now I need to go check the show out for certain. You know I love me some LOR.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Well yeah, but I doubt that anyone is going to say "Well, former champ Cruz is now 0-1 in the UFC, after defending his belt) on the broadcast. I guess from my point of view, the people who are going to notice, like you and I, are enough in the know that they’ll understand what’s what, and the casuals won’t even catch wind of it.
Ahh, ok. I keep telling someone to post the show threads a little earlier, but you know how that goes.
You know what's really fun? Not being a raving lunatic. Give it a try some time, you might just like it!
Live previews and reviews of all major fights! Lights Out Radio
Casuals do pick up on this stuff, believe it or not. They might not know a half guard sweep from an ankle pick, but my goodness will they pick up on small details. I can assure you that in the lead up to UFC 125, I’m going to get no less than 10 questions along the lines of, “Who is this Jose Aldo guy? How is he UFC champion even though I’ve never seen him in the UFC before? What? You mean he’s champion even though he’s never fought in the UFC before? That’s messed up dude.”
BTW I checked out the show this morning and you guys raised some great points. I gave ya’ll some love at the bottom of the article. And yes, Bishop needs to put up the show thread a bit earlier – unless it’s a preview or review show, I usually don’t know about the show until 12 hours after it’s over. I don’t like it when I miss my chance to give you guys a hard time!! ;~)
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Yeah, I guess that’s true. I think that will have a lot to do with how much, and for that matter how WELL they market him, and the fight. I’d be surprised if they didn’t pimp it pretty hard, because he’s an exciting fighter to watch, whether he’s tearing off dudes’ faces, or dashing up the stairs in the arena.. plus the whole “main event nobody gives an ish about” thing. To be honest, I’m not nearly as concious about that sort of thing as I used to be; the old job I had gave me a lot of exposure to a lot of different people, many of whom were just interested enough to watch the fights I brought in, but not enough to follow anything (besides Lesnar and Faber, that is). The new one is.. well, it’s not nearly the same.
Yeah, I think that’s a problem, although not an astronomical one. In all fairness to him, we seem to do 90% of our shows starting 4-4:30 EST on Fridays, and after the fights, but it’d be nice to have that post up there slappin’ people in the face when they wander by earlier in the day, or the night before. Thanks for the linkage!
You know what's really fun? Not being a raving lunatic. Give it a try some time, you might just like it!
Live previews and reviews of all major fights! Lights Out Radio
They are going to push him as a smaller, more exciting Anderson Silva. I do have the fear that he’s going to start playing with his food eventually, and it’s going to be another headache for the UFC. People already forget that Aldo essentially did nothing in the first and last round of the Faber fight.
And it’s suprising what fighters the non-fan and casual fan knows and doesn’t know. Pretty much everyone knows Lesnar, Faber and Liddell and to a slightly lesser extent Rampage. You would be shocked how many people don’t know who Randy Couture or Rich Franklin are. A guy I watched UFC 121 with at the local casino last weekend knew all about Court McGee, yet he had no clue who Cain Velasquez was. Such is the power of TUF.
And I’m actually a lot more interested in seeing the Edgar vs. Maynard rematch than seeing Aldo knock Josh Grispi’s head into the third row. People forget what a fun little fight the first Edgar vs. Maynard match was. I think that makes a really good 5 round war. I could very easily see Maynard coming out, dominating the first few rounds with his wrestling, then having Edgar come on strong in the later rounds due to Maynard’s tendency to slow down as the fight progresses.
My pleasure to link to the show. I’m a big fan. I’ll try to make sure to catch the shows live from now on.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Well, I’m glad that SOMEONE besides Matt is looking forward to Edgar vs Maynard. To me, neither guy is particularly talented, and doesn’t offer anything to a lot of people to get excited about. Like, Edgar moves around, and has decent boxing, but he isn’t overly dominant. Maynard is the same, except that he’s a little better at wrestling, and not as good at striking. Neither guy has any kind of finishing ability, no charisma, and nothing that stands out. I mean come on, the only difference between these guys and Fitch is that Fitch grapples well and can’t finish, as opposed to dancing around and throwing strikes that don’t even phase guys, but Fitch is demonized because he can’t finish either.
You know what's really fun? Not being a raving lunatic. Give it a try some time, you might just like it!
Live previews and reviews of all major fights! Lights Out Radio
Well, I’m glad that SOMEONE besides Matt is looking forward to Edgar vs Maynard. To me, neither guy is particularly talented, and doesn’t offer anything to a lot of people to get excited about. Like, Edgar moves around, and has decent boxing, but he isn’t overly dominant.
C’mon Neil, I know you watched UFC 118. How can someone who totally dominated BJ Penn for five rounds be untalented? Edgar made BJ look like he didn’t even belong in there with him.
I think it’s interesting that people get so stuck on finishing fights. If it’s a good fight, who cares? In his last ten fights, Muhammad Ali only finished two opponents, who were of questionable ability. Didn’t stop people from loving the guy and tuning in by the droves to watch him fight.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
What’s your definition of dominating? Jumping in and out and jabbing a dude for twenty-five minutes isn’t exactly dominating. If you want to see dominating, refer back to Silva vs Leben, or Dos Santos vs Nelson. BJ couldn’t handle the speed, and couldn’t get on Edgar’s timing.. I mean, him getting poked by a hummingbird would also be “dominating”, but that’s not something I want to see either.
Yeah, finishing fights isn’t everything, but do you know anyone who is clammoring to see Edgar or Maynard? How about Fitch? They’re all great fighters, but they’re pretty boring too. I’m not saying that you’ve GOT to be able to finish a fight to be exciting, but a guy like Maynard who has a finishing ability of negative three doesn’t do it for me. He’s fast, has good wrestling, and average boxing. Hell, Alvarez vs Hansen was a GREAT fight, and that didn’t go to a finish.
You know what's really fun? Not being a raving lunatic. Give it a try some time, you might just like it!
Live previews and reviews of all major fights! Lights Out Radio
Edgar completley outstruck and outgrappled Penn in the rematch. It wasn’t even remotely close. Was it a total ass kicking like the fights you listed? No. But Penn wasn’t able to get anything going in that fight, besides a takedown that he couldn’t do much with late in the fight. Edgar made Penn look outclassed.
I think Edgar vs. Maynard is going to be far more entertaining than anyone expects. Their first fight was fun. I don’t see why their rematch should be any different.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Well, isn’t that what domination would be, regarding a fight? Penn got outclassed, that’s for damn sure, but if we’re talking about a fight and someone got “dominated”, that means they kicked the other dude’s ass, and in a big way.
Who knows, maybe the fight will be super fun, and maybe it’ll draw like no other, but being the realist that I am (some call it pessimism), I think that it’ll be long and boring, and without something good backing it, it dies a death on PPV. Any way you cut it though, make sure you get a bathroom break in beforehand, because this fight is gonna be a looong one.
You know what's really fun? Not being a raving lunatic. Give it a try some time, you might just like it!
Live previews and reviews of all major fights! Lights Out Radio
Edgar outstruck Penn 142 to 56 and took him down 3 times. Is that a complete ass kicking? No, but it’s pretty one sided for a fight on that high of a level. The only other person who’s run any sort of game like that on Penn was GSP.
And yes, unless Edgar puts it in overdrive when Maynard slows down in the championship rounds, it’s probably going to the cards. Then again, fights we usually expect to go 5 tedious rounds usually end in a first round stoppage, so who knows.
And even with Aldo on the card, that show is going to draw diddly. That’s a hardcore fan’s card. Plus, their first show of the year typically draws poor numbers – UFC 108, UFC 93, UFC 80, and UFC 67, for example.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
nobody will be saying that because it will be explained to them just who Jose Aldo is and why he’s the UFC FW champion. What fans will notice is that these little guys can go and Aldo vs. Grispi is going to be a perfect showcase fight to show just why the FW is one of the most exciting in all of mma.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Oct 31, 2010 5:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Why can’t Aldo and Grispi have a historic match to see who the first UFC featherweight champion is? Why do they have to make Aldo the defacto champion before he’s ever fought in the UFC?
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Because he’s already the champion and their fight is already historic enough.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Nov 4, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
good point,I never noticed it,but I dont think that its a big deal.
"Its not about the size of the dog in the fight...its about the size of the fight in the dog"
i know what you're saying
and i think it’s a good point, even your solution is preferable, but i do think it’s a technicality and doesn’t really mean anything to most people…. i don’t really look at Aldo as the WEC 145 champ, more like the zuffa 145 champ or just the best champ at 145 so, to me, it’s fine the way they are doing it..
we mutha fuckin thug life riders westsiiiide till we die
by cosmic fist technique on Oct 30, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions
I think Aldo is far and away the best 145 pounder on the planet, bar none. Still, he needs to actually WIN the UFC title. That’s not asking too much of him or Zuffa, for the matter. Just going, “Well, he’s UFC champion now” and just slapping a title on him is a bit weak. Make the guy win the title in the octogon. Considering his incredible talent, that should be pretty easy for him.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
I disagree with this. It's all semantics
While Ken Norton was never a heavyweight champ, Aldo has been the de facto UFC featherweight champ. It’s just that the UFC’s featherweight division had its fights under a different banner in name only up until now.
Why is Aldo the defacto UFC featherweight champion, when he has never fought in the UFC? Just because the Fertitta’s also own that promotion? The WEC and UFC are seperate products, exsept for the PPV they did where it was The Aldo vs. Faber Fighting Championship.
And Ken Norton was an alphabet soup champ (NABF I believe) before he was awarded the WBC title.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
I agree with the semantics call
Lets take out the letters “UFC.” Jose Aldo is still the featherweight champ. He can’t be called the WEC champ as that promotion ceases to exist soon. Therefore, UFC champ is the right call as that is the promotion he is fighting under. We can’t call it an interim title because it isn’t “interim” from anything.
The UFC has absorbed a weight class it never had and since the fighters will be fighting under that banner, they will be UFC champs regardless of the outcome. Its just another name attached to the belt. No biggie.
good article and you make an interesting point that i never would have thought of on my own
that being said I don’t care about this is at all
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
call me selfish, but i liked watching the undercard bouts on the WEC and getting a feel for guys coming up to be contenders, now i have to sit through f***ing TUF alum’s fighting UFC first timers and other TUF style fights instead of watching 3-5 exciting bantam, feather, and light weight fights on a card.
BORING.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Nov 2, 2010 11:34 AM EDT reply actions
I can get behind this. I kinda have the same feeling I did when Pride closed up shop. I really enjoyed the WEC product. The UFC is like vanilla, and the WEC was Cherry Garcia. They’re both good, and I like to have them on a regular basis, but I want both. I don’t want one or the other, and I don’t need to have them swirled together.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Good article, but I think its somewhat misplaced. The proper comparison would probably be if Aldo or Cruz jumped from the promotion to Shooto or Pancrase, and Grispi and Jorgensen were given the titles only to lose them in the first defense. The fact that you still have the current world champs fighting legitimizes the bouts in a way that Norton was not able to do in his fight with Holmes.
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